SPOILER ALERT: This interview contains spoilers from “Bulletproof,” the Season 3 finale of “Hacks,” now streaming on Max.
“Hacks” spent its third season bringing its two main characters together again and integrating them more deeply into each other’s careers and lives. And in the season finale, it tied them together for the foreseeable future — while ensuring that their next steps together will be colored by blackmail, betrayal, and all the other elements of interpersonal comedy.
The previous season ended with Deborah (Jean Smart) firing Ava (Hannah Einbinder) so that Hannah could develop her voice independently; it was a situation that could not last long. Brought back into the fold, Ava takes on an unlikely new mission for her legendary comedy boss: getting him the coveted job hosting a late-night talk show. Having helped get Deborah this job, Ava just assumes she will be named editor-in-chief. This is not the case: Deborah fears that the fact of her own casting represents enough risk for the channel and plans to keep the head writer of the previous series, a man with more experience.
What follows is a tough fight – the “Sopranos” episode “Whitecaps” transferred into the world of comedy and that very special mentor-mentee relationship. Series co-creator Lucia Aniello says, “I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a scene in this series as strong as the fight between Deborah and Ava in the finale. Hannah’s performance in this scene is insane.
But Ava isn’t done yet. She continues to blackmail Deborah, promising to report the fact that she slept with the head of the network before getting her new job. And Deborah, thus forced to work with a colleague who she now knows would happily threaten to humiliate her to get what she wants, ends the season with everything she wanted: except stability with Ava.
Aniello, along with fellow co-creators Paul W. Downs and Jen Statsky, spoke with Variety in March for a magazine report on the entire season. During our conversation, they touched on the May 30 finale and other events throughout the season, the evolving Deborah-Ava dynamic, and why — if only subliminally — Deborah finds the Ava’s “exciting” heel turn.
I was struck by how the arguments over Ava’s role in Deborah’s life resembled the way these characters express complicated love for each other.
Paul W. Downs: We always talk about their relationship as one step forward, two steps back. As they evolve, they will reoffend. People can make incremental changes, but they don’t completely change who they are. Both think they are doing right by the other person. Deborah thinks, “We have to make this show work, so let’s sit down and figure it out.” » Ava says, “It will work better because I do it.” They’re both a bit selfish. They both learned each other’s moves.
But ultimately, it’s their love language. They are forced to be together – their destinies are linked. Because they are looking for the same thing, which is dignity.
Lucie Aniello: Especially the idea that Ava has studied Deborah over the seasons and understands how Deborah works and how she doesn’t ask for respect – she takes it. And in that fight scene, it’s almost as if Deborah is subconsciously, subliminally telling him, “If you want this, you have to go get it.”
It’s reminiscent of the Season 2 finale of “Succession,” when Kendall blasts her dad on live TV and her dad watches with a smile. It’s like he has a newfound respect for his son – and it was the same for Deborah.
Disadvantages: We will definitely take “Succession”. But we tried to incorporate that. They are mirror images of each other. They found the other half of the room inside each other. Even though it’s infuriating and really scary, because what is that going to do to the foundation of the relationship? — Deborah is enlightened.
Jen Statsky: She didn’t know Ava had it in her until that very moment. It’s a shock, and for lack of a better term, a turn-on for Deborah.
Aniello: I was going to say: it’s exciting!
Statsky: It’s exciting that she has a worthy opponent. I don’t think Deborah ever feels like she has a worthy opponent.
Was there ever a world in which Deborah didn’t have the night chair?
Disadvantages: She was always going to get it.
Aniello: The most important thing was knowing how to justify it. If this happened tomorrow, we’d be surprised if a 70-year-old woman suddenly became a late-night host. But we felt like we had put Deborah at the peak of her career. And if there was ever a moment, this is it. This is the situation: how can we make sure it feels real? She would understand, but how can we make sure that this looks like something that could actually happen in the realm of our society’s existence?
Disadvantages: If there was a Deborah Vance in the world, I could see her getting it right. Because it’s something new, especially in this age of “Oh, we were wrong.” Now the leaders would say, “Let’s do this, because it’s noisy.” » I think when Ellen DeGeneres’ sitcom was canceled, no one was like, “Oh, an openly gay woman is going to be a daytime talk show host and win all these Emmys.” » Not in this world! And yet, she managed to achieve it. So I think it’s closer to reality than not.
Aniello: But it was important for us to have a great foil in Jack Danby. Because he’s the one who would get it, right? The handsome guy who is six foot five inches tall. We have to bring it down, we have to go to the affiliates. We have to go to “Talk Stoop,” do it all – because she’s unapologetic. So if she’s shameless and willing to sell herself, let’s watch her do that.
Statsky: We still love that – even though Deborah is a larger-than-life character – we want the show to still feel grounded. So we wanted to make sure that this felt like a concrete, real way to happen in our entertainment industry. We wanted to make sure it felt earned and real, because we never want the show to feel like a fantasy.
JAKE GILES NETTER
It’s funny that we ended up here, given that the second season finale, when Deborah fired Ava, seemed to many viewers like a potential series finale. Bringing them together was an obvious challenge.
Disadvantages: We talked about the show for many years before pitching it, and we had the calculation of what we wanted the show to look like. That said, we don’t always know exactly how to bring them together. This was something we had to challenge ourselves to understand – we had put ourselves in a bind and had to figure out exactly how we were doing the details. But for us, it was never going to be a series finale.
Aniello: We didn’t want to put them back together and then forget about it and it’s over. Deborah says, “I need you to come back” and Ava says, “OK, well, I need to know that this will do something for our relationship.” But in the end, Ava says, “I gave up on all that…”
How they got back together is now reflected in the finale. For us, it was like making sure their separation wasn’t just a MacGuffin. I wanted to make sure that (breaking up) meant something to the relationship that was developing over the course of the season.
Touching on other late-season events, I was interested in the fact that the penultimate episode took place on a college campus and involved conversations about “cancel culture.” I wondered if this particular perspective on comedy would ever make it into the show.
Disadvantages: It was a big challenge and it was carefully considered. We’ve had the idea for the episode since season 1.
Aniello: It was in the original pitch.
Disadvantages: Because we don’t want to take too many sides, and because this is a very nuanced and complicated conversation, we wanted to wait for the right moment. Her quest this season gave us the perfect opportunity to tell this story. That’s something we thought we needed to address: when the context changes over time, the comedy changes. It’s really triggering for people, because it’s not that you’re getting older because you’re funny, but sometimes your material is getting older and is no longer relevant or appropriate. Facing this is a marker of Deborah’s evolution.
An interesting element of the season was the introduction of Deborah’s sister Kathy, played by J. Smith-Cameron. I kind of assumed she would be like Maris Crane in “Frasier” and never be seen.
Disadvantages: It was so fun to open the door and see her.
Statsky: We always try to make sure that we’re pushing all of our characters to evolve. For Deborah to continue to grow and evolve, she had to face this reality. If you are an artist, especially a comedian, you must first be honest with yourself. And one thing Ava has pushed Deborah to do for three seasons is be a more honest version of herself. And to do that, she would eventually have to confront Kathy and this relationship. This is obviously something that has been with him for 50 years. We were always going to have it.
Disadvantages: The how and when was a high-wire act. There’s a mystique to it – it’s East Maris’s thing. When do we do it? There’s so much going on this season. But the narrative dictated that we do this, with DJ and her pregnancy. The renewed interest and loss of her sister was going to be one of the things that led her to what she does in the finale.
Statsky: Finally having this conversation with Kathy, it took us three seasons to earn these moments. Deborah needed to earn it with her evolution, and as a show we needed to earn it with our audience.
Disadvantages: The actor had to be available too.
Statsky: We needed another hit HBO show to end on.
This interview has been edited and condensed.