Pulitzer Prize-winning playwright Annie Baker’s debut film Janet Planet is a delicate memoir set in hippie Massachusetts in the early 1990s, following a sensitive and eccentric 11-year-old named Lacy (Zoe Ziegler) and her very close relationship with her mother, Janet (Julianne Nicholson, nominated for an Emmy Award for Easttown mare). Janet is the planet Lacy orbits, and the film wouldn’t work without the fine performance of Ziegler, a preteen making her acting debut. When I interviewed Baker and Ziegler, I expected to speak with a discreet playwright (like her plays, in which the action is often interior) and with a child of jazz performance. But Ziegler was Zoom shy, and Baker was a talkative, passionate discussant of her own film, even as she kindly helped Ziegler through a slightly overwhelming interview situation.
Janet Planet is a little magical, a little funny and a little sad – a nice evolution of Baker’s playwright on screen. I spoke to Baker and Ziegler about Rainer Maria Rilke, lost childhood friends, and how people change between the ages of 10 and today. And I learned everything about Zoé Ziegler’s horse, Céline. Our conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Dan Kois: Zoe, it looks like you had a great time making the film. How old are you now?
Zoe Ziegler: Twelve.
But you made the film a while ago, so how old were you when you were filming with Annie and Julianne?
Ziegler: Ten.
Do you feel like you remember that time well, or does it feel like it was a million years ago?
Ziegler: No, I remember that.
Annie, how old were you when you made this film?
Baker: Oh, great question. I was 10 and now I’m 12! No, I just turned 43, so I guess when I shot it I had just turned 41.
Zoé, what was the food like on set? It was good ?
Ziegler: Some were good.
Baker: Remember when you had those trays with those dipping things?
Ziegler: Yeah, those peanut butter and jelly things.
Baker: Yes. Zoe had these peanut butter and jelly dips that were just for her, but then I was like, “I want those too.”
Annie, when you talked to Zoe about what her character Lacy is like, what did you say?
Baker: I don’t think I did.
You haven’t done it?
Baker: Did I tell you about what the character was like?
Ziegler: I do not think so.
Why not?
Baker: Well, first of all, I’ve never really liked talking about characters in a reductive way. I’m really interested in the idea of the character which, anyway, is just a series of contradictions. And especially with Zoe, who was a first-time actress and who I thought just understood the subject, both technically and spiritually, in a way that I can’t totally explain. I feel like if I had tried to portray the character to him in a reductive way, it would have really hurt his performance.
Zoe, did you feel like you understood Lacy and what she was going through?
Ziegler: Yeah.
Yeah. Was there anything about Lacy that made you think, Oh, she’s a bit like me in that way?
Ziegler: Well, I love being outside and Lacy loved being outside too.
There are a lot of scenes in the movie where Lacy snuggles up with her mother in bed and they whisper to each other. Zoe, what was it like doing those scenes with Julianne? Was it nice to be in there? Was it weird?
Baker: I wouldn’t say it was comfortable, because it was very hot, wasn’t it?
Ziegler: It was really hot.
Baker: Between takes, you would throw the covers off, right?
Ziegler: Yeah.
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There is a sequence in the film that really reminded me of my childhood. This is the one where Lacy meets a girl named Sequoia at the mall and they have an incredibly fun day. They just connect and have such a great time together, but then who knows? Maybe they’ll never see each other again. My memory is just filled with random kids that for some reason I met them for a day and we connected and I was like, If I lived in the same city as this person, we would be best friends forever. And we had this perfect, fun day, but it was 1990, so there was no chance we could reconnect. Annie, did you have children like that growing up?
Baker: There is this girl, maybe thanks to this article I can find her! There was a girl named Jane. I think his last name was Kramer. We were roommates at overnight camp and I really liked him. And we remained friends after the overnight camp and I visited her in Philadelphia and I don’t know how to find her now. She was incredible.
Which side was it?
Baker: It was called Horizons. She was cooler than me and a year or two older than me, which is a big deal. She was very generous to me and we stayed in touch for a year, but there was no email or cell phone, and now I don’t know how to find her.
I really hope Jane from Philadelphia reads this and reaches out to me.
Baker: Jane, maybe Kramer, who went to Horizons, who grew up in Philadelphia.
That day, when they were running through the mall, they stopped at a chain bookstore and read one of the book’s books. Cave Bear Clan series.
Baker: Thanks for noticing this. I put this excerpt in the first draft of the script, not understanding how difficult it is to get the rights to things in films, even independent films, and had to write to Jean M. Auel a very passionate letter, and it was great and let me use it.
Did your letter explain how formative the book was for you at that specific age?
Baker: Yes.
Zoé, these books are somehow notorious for people our age. Have you read this entire book or just the section that was in the screenplay?
(Annie Baker makes big “no” gestures)
Ziegler: Just the section.
Baker: His generation doesn’t need to know that.
Can I ask you some questions, Annie, about the Duino Elegies?
Baker: Yeah.
Part of this poem appears at a crucial moment in the film. I reread it about 10 million times after seeing it. What do you like about elegies?
Baker: Wow. I mean, it’s really hard to talk about, and I’ve never really tried to talk about it before, and in fact, it’s always what makes me want to put something in a movie or a play, that’s if it’s something I don’t like. I don’t know how to talk about it. Which is not to escape you…
However, this is a perfectly evasive answer.
Baker: That said, I think the fourth elegy in particular captures a certain perceptual experience I had at Zoe’s age. A sort of trinity of surveillance. Between an object – a theatrical object, which for me as a child was a toy or something that I had made – myself, and the gaze of the parent. And there’s something about the way this trinity of gaze works that I think it captures in this poem, and which I think is a big part of why I wanted to make this film.
Zoe, you were 10 when you did this. Presumably, you are a totally different person now than you were then. How is Zoe, 12, different from Zoe, 10? I guess you’re bigger.
Ziegler: Yeah.
Do you have the same interests as when you were 10, or are you interested in completely different things?
Ziegler: I still ride horses.
Oh that’s great! Do you show ride or just trail ride?
Ziegler: Sometimes I do shows.
Do you have a horse that you love the most?
Ziegler: Yes, I own a horse named Céline.
Celine! What kind is she?
Ziegler: He’s a paint horse, like a quarter horse. After the film, I rented it and then, a little over a year ago, I bought it.
Baker: Did you buy it in part with the money you made from the film?
Ziegler: Mm-hmm.
Baker: I just think it’s a huge accomplishment that you did that. We all worked very hard. And Zoe said to me, “I’m going to get my horse back at the end.” » I felt that from you.
I feel like this is actually a really good answer to the question “What is the actor’s motivation in all of this?” »
Baker: Really really. Zoé has no stage parents. Your parents didn’t push you to do this. You were curious about the experience and wanted to buy your horse.
Ziegler: Yeah.
Baker: I got the movie and Zoe got the horse.
What is Celine like? What is his personality?
Ziegler: She’s a little crazy, but in a good way.
What do you like most about horse riding?
Ziegler: I don’t know. It just makes me happier.
Annie, do you feel different now that you are 43 compared to when you were 10?
Baker: Maybe.